New list of loa - v. 0.51

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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Snicka on Sun Jul 25, 2010 3:51 pm

Ryleen wrote:What exactly is it that makes you consider Sam'di evil?

Everybody hates Hades. (TV tropes link, open it at your own risk!)

To Euphrati: I like your idea of a raptor god. I actually wonder why there is no raptor Loa in the original Warcraft lore (unless, for example, one of the already-existing Loa's symbol is a raptor). I also like that you based his (her?) name on an actual dinosaur name. Smile

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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Ryleen on Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:00 pm

The list is updated. All loa now have at least one form of symbol.

Almost all have a domain, something they are the loa of. A few still needs one, any ideas?

The ones missing domain are:

Akali
Kimbul
Mam'toth
Quetz'lun
Rhunok
Sou'annan
Sseratus

EDIT: forgot to add Euphrati's raptor loa, who is now called Deni'kuz. (felt like that spelling fit in better with the rest of them)
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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Ryleen on Sun Aug 15, 2010 5:11 pm

There's also this:

http://s37.photobucket.com/albums/e89/Aldriona/?action=view&current=loafamilytree1.jpg

I need to work out family bonds for all of them, but it's a tangled mess Smile
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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Euphrati on Sun Aug 15, 2010 6:13 pm

thanks for the raptor loa Smile Deni'kuz sounds great
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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Snicka on Mon Aug 16, 2010 11:50 am

Ryleen wrote:The list is updated. All loa now have at least one form of symbol.

Almost all have a domain, something they are the loa of. A few still needs one, any ideas?

The ones missing domain are:

Akali
Kimbul
Mam'toth
Quetz'lun
Rhunok
Sou'annan
Sseratus

EDIT: forgot to add Euphrati's raptor loa, who is now called Deni'kuz. (felt like that spelling fit in better with the rest of them)

The new list is nice, a lot more easy to find information in it.

The domains of the ones above can most easily be guessed by their totem animals and the few things we know about them.

Akali - rhinoceroses are known of their bad temperament and violent nature. He might be a god of the berserkers.

Kimbul - "Lord of beasts, the King of Cats and the Prey's Doom"; this suggests he is a protector of the Hunters and beasts. He shares his totem animal with Shirvallah, so their domain might overlap; they are probably related, or even the same god under different name.

Mam'toth - mammoths are large and strong, but relatively peaceful creatures. Mam'toth, father of mammoths might be a fatherly Loa (there are many protectors of the mothers, but not too many fathers). Also, if the Drakkari trolls tamed riding mammoths, the tamers most likely worshipped him.

Quetz'lun - she shares the vengeful nature of her brother Hakkar, but is even more sadistic than him. She controls some kind of underworld where she can torture her enemies for eternity. Her domain might be torture and pain.

Rhunok - being a bear god like Nalorakk, his domain is probably also war and strength.

Sou'annan - his description suggests that he is a god of blood and diseases.

Sseratus - one of the many serpent gods, his traits might be also cunning and treachery.

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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Ryleen on Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:24 pm

Thanks for the ideas Snicka. I ended up using some of them, and taking some of the loa in another direction.

Snicka wrote:
Sseratus - one of the many serpent gods, his traits might be also cunning and treachery.

Actually, among the original loa, a snake is a positive symbol and not something bad. This explains the multitude of snake statues seen in troll ruins, it's a symbol of luck and good health and so on. I've tried to keep to that when designing the loa. Smile
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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Ryleen on Mon Aug 16, 2010 2:44 pm

Updated. All loa have domains now.

Next project: Family tree.

Maybe I should turn a few of them female to make it easier? Any suggestions?
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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Snicka on Mon Aug 16, 2010 5:41 pm

Your version of Rhunok reminds me of Winnie-the-Pooh. Smile

The description of Sseratus is a bit ironic, concerning that we only meet his corpse in the game - quite bizarre for a loa of rebirth.

I also noticed that in Ba'ulu's description, there is a name missing, the name of a Loa that stopped him from swallowing the sun. Could that Loa be Legba? Perhaps the sun became his symbol in honour of this act?

About the relationships between the various gods: maybe the gods in the same pantheon (Forest, Jungle, Ice) or with a similar aspect (snake, cat, bear, etc.) are closely related. Also, I suggest the three Zim'-s should be siblings.

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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Ryleen on Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:11 pm

I googled the symbolism of their respective totem animals, and that's what bears supposedly are like Smile

As for Sseratus, the concept of rebirth in connection to snakes kept coming up, so I thought I'd just use it, seemed like fun.


Yes, there's a name missing.. And sure, Legba makes sense.

As for family trees.. I don't consider the different troll loa to be parts of different pantheons. They probably all originate from zandalar anyway, jsut that different tribes focused on different loa, and thus today different kinds of troll worship different loa. They might mock the loa of other gods, calling them weak, but they do accept them as just as much loa as their own.
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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Snicka on Mon Aug 16, 2010 10:30 pm

Ryleen wrote:I googled the symbolism of their respective totem animals, and that's what bears supposedly are like Smile

Perhaps the other Pooh characters match the symbolism of their species? The motherly kangaroo, the energetic tiger, the pessimistic donkey etc. Smile

As for Sseratus, the concept of rebirth in connection to snakes kept coming up, so I thought I'd just use it, seemed like fun.

I guess this symbolism comes from the snakes' ability to shed their skins. And perhaps Sseratus will be reborn after he was sacrificed by his own prophet.

Yes, there's a name missing.. And sure, Legba makes sense.

Reading my older posts, I realized I have suggested Legba several months ago already. Very Happy

As for family trees.. I don't consider the different troll loa to be parts of different pantheons. They probably all originate from zandalar anyway, jsut that different tribes focused on different loa, and thus today different kinds of troll worship different loa. They might mock the loa of other gods, calling them weak, but they do accept them as just as much loa as their own.

Still, it is interesting to find out why certain tribes worship certain Loa that others don't. Maybe some Loa have chosen tribes, or their power over certain lands (which their totem animals inhabit) are stronger?

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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Snicka on Tue Aug 17, 2010 12:55 pm

I found something contradictory in the description of Legba. While he is mentioned to be among the oldest Loa, he is the great-great-grandson of Sam'di, which suggests him being relatively young.
The contradiction can be resolved by suggesting that he is a relatively young Loa, but he has been accepted to be among the oldest ones because of his heroic deeds (defeating some great evil, for example - like stopping Ba'ulu from swallowing the sun).

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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Ryleen on Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:01 pm

Hm.. I had missed that. Might simply remove the comment that he's old.
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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Snicka on Tue Aug 17, 2010 1:45 pm

The Wikipedia article on the real Legba also suggests that he is believed to be relatively young:

In Benin and Nigeria, Legba is viewed as young and virile, is often horned and phallic, and his shrine is usually located at the gate of the village in the countryside.


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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Ryleen on Tue Aug 17, 2010 3:24 pm

The thing is that the 'real' legba is a fairly complex loa, with many different sides to him and many different aspects. I chose to keep some of the for our Legba, to make him easier to grasp. Some of the other sides, I chose to make into individual loa (Such as Eshu and Kalfu), and some parts I cut out entirely.
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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Snicka on Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:02 pm

If Eshu and Kalfu are inspired by the "real" Legba, I suggest you to make Kalfu his brother (evil twin?) and Eshu his son.

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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Ryleen on Tue Aug 17, 2010 5:27 pm

Sounds like a good idea.

I've also considered turning a few more of the loa female, if nothing else so to help with the family tree. It's funny, when I read through the list, it initially feels like a decent female/male balance, when it in reality just has 35% females.
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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Snicka on Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:00 pm

The low number of female gods can be explained by trolls associating masculinity with power. Also, as we saw with Bethekk, gods can choose whatever gender they like, they just prefer to appear in a male or female form.
Probably many gods have no partner at all, or pair up with some lesser being (such as Har'koa having a spirit beast as her mate).

Ayizan is described being "the mother of many children" but on the family tree she seems to have none. Maybe you should make many of the loa that have no parents yet her (and Legba's) children.

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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Ryleen on Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:23 pm

Here we go, a finished family tree. Still open for changes of course. I've tried to have a thought of who is married of parent of who, but in some cases it was simply because it fit the shape of the tree. Smile

The tree is a vague thing in itself, of course. Wether the loa are actually related or not, no one can truly tell. But when telling stories about them, relationships have developed, and eventually branched out into this over the course of history.

or something..

Here we go: http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e89/Aldriona/loafamilytree2.jpg
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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Hadunka on Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:34 pm

Great work Ry Smile
I will have a proper look at it later to see if I have any thing to ad .. but I noticed that Deni'kuz seem to be missing in the family tree. I might just have missed it though. As I remember were we talking about putting (her?) as a sister to Beth'ekk.
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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Snicka on Tue Aug 17, 2010 7:50 pm

My first thoughts on the family tree:

I really like some parts of it, and have problem with some.

I like, for example, that the "evil" gods ended up related to each other - Sou'Annan being the mate of Ula-tek and the father of Hakkar, Quetz'lun being the mother of Ba'ulu, etc.

On the other hand, I really suggest a revision on the tree for the primal gods on the left side of the picture. The current version gives me the feeling (I might be wrong though) that you have just randomly chosen the names and placed them on a tree without thinking it over too much (as you said, "because it fit the shape of the tree"). Wouldn't it make more sense that the gods with similar domain, similar totem, or worshipped by the same tribes, would be more closely related?

Think of that the family tree is supposedly based on troll myths. I imagine forest trolls telling myths of Halazzi, Nalorakk and Jan'alai, ice trolls about Rhunok, Mam'toth and Akali, and jungle trolls about Shirvallah, Hethiss and Hir'eek. I think they would rather tell tales about a husband and a wife, a father and a son, a brother and a sister, rather than a great-uncle and a great-nephew or a great-grandfather and a great-grandson. You mentioned you don't like the concept of different pantheons, but it still would make more sense to me than the current, "randomized" version. If you let me, I'll post a "revised" version (and involve Deni'kuz on it Wink).

Nevertheless, I really appreciate the effort you put in the family tree. Great job! Smile

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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Ryleen on Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:07 pm

Yes, I forgot Deni'kuz.

Also, you need to make up your mind if you want that change, Snicka. It will be -either- similar totems or worshipped by the same loa. For example, the bear gods and tiger gods are worshipped by different tribes.

And as I've said before, I believe they were all originally one pantheon, when trolls where just one kind of troll, and as they split up, people for different reasons chose to focus on different loa.

I have mainly tried to take loa I feel fit together. A warrior god having a berserker god child, a god of the ocean being married to the goddess of floods, a calm and peaceful god having similarily peaceful children and so on.
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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Kaz'jo on Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:15 am

I suggest a few twists in that plan and putting some troublemakers in peaceful families and the other way around, as it happened in real mythologies not once nor twice (Loki sends his regards!) and would be simply more interesting.
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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Vypra on Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:38 pm

Kaz has a point. there are always a few families with their 'black sheep' Wink

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Re: New list of loa - v. 0.51

Post  Snicka on Thu Aug 19, 2010 6:27 pm



This is roughly what I propose. My most important changes:
- Primal gods' most prominent feature is that they are the aspect of some specific beast, so I thought it would be a good idea to have many of them closely related.
- I found An'boa, protector of all wildlife, a fitting god for being the progenitor of most primal gods.
- Kimbul is a very ancient god, mentioned on the Zul'Farrak tablets among Mueh'Zala and Shadra, so I decided to put him high on the family tree, as the father of the beast-gods.
- Halazzi became the son of Nalorakk. They are both war deities worshipped by the forest trolls in the form of a large carnivorous mammal, so I found that fitting.
- The ice gods became one little family (with the exception of Quetz'lun and Sseratus), with the most ancient of them, Mam'toth, as the father.
- Hethiss moved into the serpent family (Ula-tek is sometimes called the Mother of Serpents, so I felt Hethiss being her daughter would be fitting). She is the "white sheep" in the "evil" family.
- Kalfu and Legba became full brothers instead of half-brothers.
- Zanza became the son of Legba. The former is the protector of the Zandalar tribe, the latter is the creator of trolls.
- Jan'alai became the son/daughter of Ogoun, being both fire gods. (I know (s)he's one of the primal gods too, along with Akil'zon, but in her case I felt the fire trait more prominent - probably she should be Nalorakk's wife and Halazzi's mother?)

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Oacha'noa Primal God?

Post  Trinda on Mon Aug 23, 2010 10:40 pm

While in Dragonblight the other day, I was doing some Tuskarr quests and happened across the Oacha'noa conversation.
Her first rumblings are of particular interest.
Oacha'noa yells: Little <name>, why do you call me forth? Are you working with the trolls of this land? Have you come to kill me and take my power as your own?
This is purely speculation (as most of my posts tend to be), but Oacha'noa appears to be a Primal God (at least to me!). Why else would she be concerned that the Trolls were coming to take her power?

I know your list of gods is already quite massive, but it's food for thought.
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