Ending the war

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Ending the war

Post  Ryleen on Sun May 02, 2010 2:07 pm

Here's what has been discussed between the leaders of the pact ooc, to try to solve the war and exile problem without severely harm the guild's rp.


Defining the problem:


Katalmach wrote:
The WSB role in all this is two fold. Firstly, we are an "authority" guild and the defense of the Horde is an important duty to us. The chain of recent events with the Heritage; Ryleen's treason (and history with Overlord Agmar), the Heritage's stronger loyalties to a foreign power and Ryleen's open lack of serious Horde loyalty, the Heritage's "criminal" involvement in conspiracy and deception and support of Ryleen's treason, Kazjo spitting on Nazrug in response to a question about Horde loyalty and an overall lack of Horde loyalty across the board has resulted in the Heritage being seen as a direct threat to that charge. Secondly, the honour of the Blades itself comes into the picture due to various insults, accusations (the truth of which is unknown to all of us except for two rogues), and the major point being the attempted assassination of Nazrug by Zanick (which, given everything, implicates the Heritage further as a dangerous subversive group, given Nazrug's role in our war effort and the Heritage's past actions at Southshore).

With the above all taken at once, this establishes that from our end something must be done to neutralize the Heritage.

Katalmach sums up our problem pretty well, and gives us a good view of what our actions look like in the eyes of the rest of the pact.

Alaster wrote:
…one of the more troublesome issues of the problems with the Heritage. Heritage members, by and large, love Ryleen to bits but they don't listen to or obey her. In short they each individually do what they think is best for Ryleen (sometimes without even bothering to consult her or tell her later about it.)

Problem with that one will not go away if we follow Kat's plan (which otherwise is an awesome solution by the way) but it is a problem that needs dealing with by Ryleen and Chabat. All we can do is offer advise although I have been told that the Order is willing to offer its' authority figure training staff to help. (It's a bloody great big staff wielded by Yrjial and not failed to stamp authority yet!) But in all seriousness, if Ryleen wants it Yrjial can be persuaded to offer sage advice about setting down ground rules about leadership.

Alaster points out yet another problem. Ry's lacking leadership. It was suggested a few times that I should simply give leadership to someone else, or that I should have Ry step down and create a new character to put as leader, neither of which I like. So instead, Ry will have to develop

Ryleen wrote:To have to leave the Horde is something we've been counting on for a few weeks now. In many ways, it makes sense. Our part in the Pact has always been a bit fuzzy, and the fact that we weren't strictly speaking a horde guild to begin with, since trolls of all tribes are accepted among us, didn't exactly help.

What I'm hoping for is a solution where we can do the exile without placing too heavy limitations on my players. For most of the time, staying out of horde lands will not be a problem, there's plenty of neutral places to stay in. But to not be allowed at all will eventually be a problem. There will be times when we have to go to horde places to participate in rp. Our members will not be able to level, visit the auction house, buy pvp gear and so on, without being forced to go out of character or come up with elaborate disguises. And to try to recruit new members by placing limitations like that on them... It will be incredibly difficult.

And there we have the third part in the problem, the ooc issues all this might lead to.


Last edited by Ryleen on Sun May 02, 2010 2:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Ending the war

Post  Ryleen on Sun May 02, 2010 2:07 pm

The solution:

Several ideas have been suggested, but this seems the best one to me.

Katalmach wrote:
The idea of the HoZ becoming an openly non-Horde guild seems the most solid. To my thinking that raises two categories of requirement.

1) A way out. The Heritage must find grounds in RP to shift its image and PR from being seen as a untrustworthy, treasonous subversive group to a fundamentally non-threatening civilian one, so that defection from the Horde is not reacted to with suspicion and violence and to spare it from WSB retaliation.

2) A way forward. Specifically, if the Heritage is to be an openly neutral group there must be reasonable changes in the way the guild functions that meshes with issue 1. and provides reasonable context for future RP (so that the Heritage isn't merely retaining all rights and protections of Horde membership without having to worry about loyalty or liability).


To discuss point no. 1, my standing idea would be a list of demands placed on the Heritage from WSB. The demands would be as follows;

- For the Heritage to formally and publicly capitulate, denouncing Zanick and accepting fault for conspiracy against law and order.

- For the Heritage to demilitarize. This would involve pledging non-interference with any Horde military interests, be it to help or hinder, and for the leaders of the Heritage to retire the use of the "Warlord" title. This demand would tie in with a similar idea for issue no. 2.

- To withdraw any standing accusations.


If these are met, the WSB would in return wave its right of retaliation for the attempt on Nazrug's life, and not press any further retribution on the Heritage's standing crimes.

To address point no. 2, as to how the Heritage may defect peacefully and still be able to have certain interaction with the Horde. We'd like to see the following;

- Members of the Heritage forfeit "Horde citizenship". In other words they would not have the same rights that full Horde members do. What I have in mind specifically is that Heritage members forfeit the right to permanent domicile in Horde settlements or their immediate proximity, and the right to bear arms in Horde settlements (which ties back to demilitarization). In return, Heritage members would not be formally exiled or excommunicated or the like, but be allowed to travel through and enter Horde areas as travelers and scholars etc. to be treated in the same way as for example citizens of the Steamwheedle Cartel would be. Essentially the Heritage becomes foreign nationals. The Heritage would be released from the oath it gave while under Sertah's leadership, and any potential sovereign claim that the Horde has over Antu'rah, because of the Heritage's efforts in colonizing it while still giving lip service to the Horde, becomes void.

- The Heritage, in its recruitment efforts and public relations, makes clear that it does not represent Vol'jin or the Darkspear tribe, and that prospective members are leaving the Horde and forfeiting citizenship in order to join the Heritage.

- The Heritage consents to the supervision of Alaster and the Ashen Order in Heritage activities in the Horde sphere of interest and in meeting the above requirements.


In drawing up the above I have tried to focus on the issues at hand and have let slip some of the more minor/petty things we could require. If the above is met the open hostilities between WSB and HoZ could be put to bed then and there. Anything much more lenient than this would, from our POV, feel like it would start to stretch credibility. I think this would give both sides the largest portion of what they require, without forcing the Heritage to permanently ostracize itself in RP or forcing the WSB to forgive and forget serious issues without reason. And I also think that refocusing the Heritage as being an openly Zandalari guild provides good progression opportunities.

Some further talk was needed to define the demilitarisation part further:


The point i'd most like to clarify is the definition of 'demilitarised'.

I assume, as we can no longer call on the protection of the Horde, that we would still be allowed to train our members to defend themselves?

Ourselves, and our lands. We live safe from the other jungle troll tribes for now, since the valley remains hidden. Once we're revealed, I imagine life will not be quite so calm.

Katalmach wrote:
Well in the HoZ's case it might be more symbolic than anything, considering that HoZ isn't an actively militant guild, though it has taken militant action enough times to be thought of as a dangerous group.

Overall what I mean by demilitarization in this context is an effort for the HoZ to move fully into the role of non-interfering civilian observers in such a way that it makes a very compelling case for the Heritage not being a threat to anyone. Things like self defense training on a small scale or protecting your village from the tribes of STV wouldn't be seen as a threat to the Horde, whereas things like continuing to organize under a Warlord, or say stockpiling weapons in Antu'rah or moving around in armed groups throughout Horde territory would.

Also if I might make a suggestion to aid this process, I think it would be a good idea for the "new" HoZ to draw up a charter. Some kind of mission statement that outlines what the Heritage seeks to be, what it seeks to accomplish, and how. If the idea is still to run with being Zandalar-style observers and scholars, then I think a formal outline of that would do much to solidify the concept.

And in response to the suggestion of a charter, Chabat made this:

Vypra wrote:Katal's suggestion of drawing up a guild charter gotme thinking. I set one up for my team at work last year and its been a really useful thing to have. I've thrown together a very rough example of how a HoZ charter might look:

HoZ guild charter – example only!

Mission statement
The Heritage of Zandalar is a group of trolls from various tribes that have come together to form a neutral organisation that will act as scholars, historians and teachers following the Zandalar tribe’s example of non-aggression towards others.


Background
With the much of the youth of the Darkspear tribe scattering to all corners of the world and immersing themselves in the melting pot of cultures that is the Horde, there were those who began to feel that the ritual and history of the trolls was being eroded. This group, taking its example from the Zandalari, the progenitors of all troll kind, decided to take on the task of recording those rites and customs and how they have changed over time.

Guild Structure
- Guild Leader: Set the goals for the guild and inform us of our progress towards them, inform the guild of opportunities for development, lead interactions with other guilds/ organisations and keep the guild informed of results of these meetings.
- Primal: Help the Warlord define the goals of the guild, provide guidance to members looking for development, liaise between the masters and the warlord and act in the warlord’s stead in case of absence at formal events/ meetings.
- Masters: Take responsibility for their area of expertise within the guild, assist in advising the warlord when on matters related to their subject, attend meetings where their knowledge and experience could be important, help members who come to them for advice/ development and provide feedback on their progress to the primal and warlord
- Kindred: Help the guild achieve its goals, develop themselves to give better chance of success in this, attend guild meetings to stay informed on what is happening, follow the orders of the warlord and act in a way to bring build a positive reputation for the guild.
- Outsiders: attend guild meetings, learn about the goals of the guild and show they intend to follow them and develop themselves to make ready to take their oath.

Measures of success
- Be present at major events, recording the outcomes (particularly noting troll involvement)
- Build an archive on the history of the troll race to pass on to future generations.
- Build an archive on troll rituals and customs with a view to maintaining their practice where appropriate and adapting, without loosing the intent of, those that are not.
- Create a safe haven for trolls that do not fit into other parts of our society
- Liaise with other races to educate and inform them on overall troll history and the cultural differences between both the disparate troll tribes and their own racial cultures.

Ground Rules and development
- Attend meetings and offer input on guild issues but follow the final decisions of the Warlord and Primal.
- Behave in a way so as to maintain the security and integrity of the guild in dealings with outsiders.
- Take opportunities for development and help in developing others to aid the guild in reaching our goals.

as i said, its only really intended as a guide to how such a charter might look, but obviously i've included some of my personal veiws in there. Naturally, before it could be finalised, the whole guild must be happy to sign up to it Wink

Many of the things Katalmach suggested, we are already doing, or on the verge of doing. Ever since out first 'war' with the House have we made clear that we are not the Darkspears, initially to protect them but now because it's true, we have many members of other tribes. The Warlord title was always and odd and ill-fitting one. With the move to Antu'Rah, it seems perfect to make it into something new. We were already expecting exile, that's nothing new. And it meaning that our land is fully and truly ours is just a good thing, we can make our own laws and now has the right to, for example, throw out pestering orcs Wink To have the Order step in and watch over us might very well be a good thing. It won't be the kind of watching Zarchiah used to do, but rather guidance and help to get back on track. Inofficially, Ryleen is already recieving guidance on how to become a better leader, and having it official will be no problem, and perhaps the rest of the Heritage can pick up a thing or two as well. Smile

I like what Chabat is going for in her charter. It needs some more work, but it's definately heading in the right direction. And a clearly defined identity and goal is something we've needed since back in Snicka's days.
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Re: Ending the war

Post  Snicka on Sun May 02, 2010 3:53 pm

I have read the things above, and I agree with most points of it.

1. Independence from the Horde is a good idea: as we have various non-Horde members (Gurubashi trolls, for instance), who are not loyal to the Horde, and there are also some that are non-militaristic, and disagree with the Horde's military purposes, claiming that we are not part of the Horde - although friendly to them - is favourable. After all, Zandalar is a neutral organization, and by breaking from the Horde we can strengthen our bonds with those whose name we bear.

2. De-militarization: it has always been a big dispute in the guild if we should be militaristic or not. Claiming clearly that we are a non-militaristic guild whose only action in battle is the defense of Antu'Rah decides the question.

3. Leader name change: I support it. While "Warlord" was fitting for Snicka, it gives the wrong idea of the Heritage being militaristic, and Ryleen's personality is really far from what the name suggests. Also, it is a masculine rank. A new rank name, favourably something with a Zandalari taste (look at the ranks of the Yojamba NPC-s), would be a good idea.

4. Defining the goals: I completely support it. As Ryleen said, it has been a problem under my leadership too. More clear and definite goals, written down in a charter, would be finally a fix point for the guild that the members can follow.

5. Release from the oath: if our guild's goals change, every member of the guild should be released from their oath, and possibly take a new one. The new oath's text should fit the guild's new purpose a lot more.

6. Supervision from the Order: if it's not meeting hostility, it might be a good idea, and helpful for the characters' personality to develop.

To sum up, this all seems to be a fair solution for me.

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Re: Ending the war

Post  Euphrati on Sun May 02, 2010 4:59 pm

I feel that most of the changes to be good too.
Have too always felt the warlord title being the wrong one on Ryleen.

Though demilitarization and leave the horde ill have hard to find as im still lvling up. My ic excuse to go lvling has been that shattered hand or deathstalkers had been needing my "services" Wink
Its possible ill be handing help to them still but it would prob. go agains our rules as neutral and had to do it in more secret then its done now, as none of ye or rest of blood pact has to find out.

But leaving horde and demilitarization would prob. work fine for rest of HoZ.
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Re: Ending the war

Post  Ryleen on Sun May 02, 2010 5:35 pm

The thing is that the demilitarisation is about us not interfering with what they do. Should they ask us to help out, it's a whole different matter. Smile
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Re: Ending the war

Post  Snicka on Sun May 02, 2010 6:20 pm

Ryleen wrote:The thing is that the demilitarisation is about us not interfering with what they do. Should they ask us to help out, it's a whole different matter. Smile

I thought Katalmach suggested that we do not interfere on either side in the conflict between the Horde the Alliance; which means we do not help the Horde attack the Alliance either. Attacking neutral forces (i.e. quest mobs) is a different matter.
Are we becoming the trollish Greywolf Tribe?

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Re: Ending the war

Post  Gul'Jun on Sun May 02, 2010 6:40 pm

man katal impresses me more every day with his cleverness... its scary
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Re: Ending the war

Post  Vypra on Sun May 02, 2010 6:53 pm

While not wanting to start picking holes in your background Euphrati, i feel that i should point out that the Deathstalkers are a Forsaken assassin organisation and from my p.o.v. being involved with them as a troll would be quite unlikely.

That aside, there's no reason you cannot still quest and level in Horde zones. All you need to do is change the reason so rather than being part of the Shattered Hand loyal to Thrall, you instead are there as a representative of the Zandalari, studying the situation and, should fighting be involved, you are simply defending yourself.

As for the guild as a whole, it goes further than us being the 'new GWT'. They supposedly helped defend all horde territory while refusing to be involved in any offensive action against the Alliance. We, however, would be present at any military events purely as observers with the inference being that we would also be responsible for our own safety and therefore having to defend ourselves rather than relying on anybody from the horde forces doing it for us.

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Re: Ending the war

Post  Snicka on Sun May 02, 2010 7:04 pm

Yes, now I can see that is clearly a difference. The Greywolves were a part of the Horde, and when Orgrimmar was under attack, they were ready to help.
The Heritage, on the other hand, will not be the part of the Horde, so we do not offer any military help to the Horde when they are attacked - but we will get no help from them either when we are attacked, in change.
Also, as a neutral faction, we can attack Alliance players on their territory - the neutrality is only towards the Horde, right?


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Re: Ending the war

Post  Vypra on Sun May 02, 2010 7:10 pm

as far as i understand it, that is correct.

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Re: Ending the war

Post  Ryleen on Sun May 02, 2010 8:48 pm

I don't recall any offers of neutrality from the Alliance Wink

Also, I'd like to point out again that there's a huge difference between interfering and being asked to help out. It's not likely to happen any time soon, but should they ask for our help we can of course choose to help us, just as they may choose to help us if we need it. But it is not expected, nor required... nor likely, as things stand right now.
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Re: Ending the war

Post  Snicka on Sun May 02, 2010 9:19 pm

Ryleen wrote:I don't recall any offers of neutrality from the Alliance Wink

That is true, we can keep our hostility towards the Alliance.
However, becoming a neutral faction allows us to be involved in non-hostile RP with Alliance guilds, with all of the advantages and disadvantages it comes with. It might sound as an attractive opportunity, however, the cross-faction communication is relatively difficult. I don't know if there are any Alliance guilds or individuals that are interested in such thing either.
Also, I guess, the neutrality towards the Horde does not mean that we cannot make pacts with certain factions within the Horde. For example, while we distance ourselves from the Warsong Blades or the House of Sylvanas, we can be friendly with the Frostwolf Guardians, even offering mutual aid in combat.

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Re: Ending the war

Post  Hadunka on Mon May 03, 2010 3:12 am

I think these plans look good Smile it gives us a nice starting point, the rest is up to us.
It is more or less what Lea.... hum he .. I had in mind when things started to go south ... I just did not take the time/had the will to sit down and put it to paper Very Happy It is good other did it ^^ And I love the charter Chabat/Vypra made.

As for the title "warlord". we can ether take a female title that will fit Ry ... or a neutral title. I had a look at the Zandalari tiels on there Island ... and even if some of the sounds good .... I can not see them fit some of the sounds rely good.
It might also be good to have a look at some thing connected to Antu'Rha. We could also base it on we now turning to a more scholar based group.
I have always been found of the title "Keeper" in these kind of context ... so a troll version of "High Keeper" or "Keeper of truth" might work.
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Re: Ending the war

Post  Vypra on Mon May 03, 2010 9:07 am

Snicka, for the immediate future, i think the Blades expect us to be involved in no combat situations whatsoever. Eventually, we might be asked to help out but that would rely on us showing we can be trusted. Our current role would initially be that of observers. Over time though, we might be asked for advice.

None of this means that we can't build relationships with the other guilds. We can certainly approach them to ask about their histories and traditions. Perhaps we could even set up lecture events where we invite guest speakers.
However, this doesn't limit us to simply lots of talk-heavy rp. For those who are into pve, we are there to record the situation and outcomes of things like the assault on ice-crown.

In pvp, we can be recording the outcome of the battles we're involved in. I'm already planning to have Chabat keep a note of what is recorded in the Book of Archavon in Wintergrasp.


As for titles for the Guild leader, this is something i've been having difficulty with.
I'm leaning towards Matriarch as we're are more of an family group than anything right now, but perhaps something like Lorekeeper or Archivist would be more fitting considering our guild goals.

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Re: Ending the war

Post  Kaz'jo on Mon May 03, 2010 9:58 am

I think that borrowing the Chieftain title from other tribe leaders is not bad idea. It doesn't sound so savage as Warlord do, and as we are rather tribe than guild, it should fit.
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Re: Ending the war

Post  Hadunka on Mon May 03, 2010 12:00 pm

I vote for Lorekeeper (see keeper agen Wink ) ... Ry even have the title so she can have it her name ^^
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Re: Ending the war

Post  Snicka on Mon May 03, 2010 12:08 pm

I personally prefer Matriarch over Lorekeeper, as that sounds as if the guild leader has no other function but to keep the lore, and it expresses no actual dominance.
And the second-in-command still should be Servitor of the Matriarch or something similar.

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Re: Ending the war

Post  Vypra on Mon May 03, 2010 12:35 pm

Snicka wrote:I personally prefer Matriarch over Lorekeeper, as that sounds as if the guild leader has no other function but to keep the lore, and it expresses no actual dominance.
And the second-in-command still should be Servitor of the Matriarch or something similar.

Oooh, i likey Smile

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Re: Ending the war

Post  Snicka on Mon May 03, 2010 1:14 pm

Vypra wrote:
Snicka wrote:I personally prefer Matriarch over Lorekeeper, as that sounds as if the guild leader has no other function but to keep the lore, and it expresses no actual dominance.
And the second-in-command still should be Servitor of the Matriarch or something similar.

Oooh, i likey Smile

Of course, if Gen'jin becomes the second-in-command, he can still refer to himself as Primal Gen'jin, but his rank in the guild should be Servitor. Smile
It is a much more general rank, works for characters who are not fitting into the "troll primal" image too much - like, for example, if 'Bats becomes Ryleen's right hand wo'mon.

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Re: Ending the war

Post  Ryleen on Mon May 03, 2010 2:04 pm

Primal was never meant as in the primal trolls who take on animalistic features, but as in 'first', as far as I understood it. I think we should keep it. I like the sound of it. Matriarch would work, since we're slowly moving towards becoming more tribe-like.


Does make her sound old though... Wink


But on the other hand, I do have that title, so I could have it displayed over my name Very Happy
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Re: Ending the war

Post  Snicka on Mon May 03, 2010 3:01 pm

Ryleen wrote:Primal was never meant as in the primal trolls who take on animalistic features, but as in 'first', as far as I understood it. I think we should keep it. I like the sound of it. Matriarch would work, since we're slowly moving towards becoming more tribe-like.


Does make her sound old though... Wink


But on the other hand, I do have that title, so I could have it displayed over my name Very Happy

We might have used "Primal" as "first", but it technically meant "second". Smile

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Re: Ending the war

Post  Ryleen on Mon May 03, 2010 10:48 pm

First officer. Smile
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Re: Ending the war

Post  Vypra on Tue May 04, 2010 3:08 pm

Well, as Ry seems happy with Matriarch, lets stick with that. As for Gen'jin's title, if he's happy with Primal, there no reason not to stick with it...though i confess i did like Servitor of the Matriarch Wink

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Re: Ending the war

Post  Gul'Jun on Tue May 04, 2010 3:10 pm

Calling ry that will be a bit funny at first... then again when have i ever called her by rank ? Suspect
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Re: Ending the war

Post  Snicka on Tue May 04, 2010 3:24 pm

Vypra wrote:Well, as Ry seems happy with Matriarch, lets stick with that. As for Gen'jin's title, if he's happy with Primal, there no reason not to stick with it...though i confess i did like Servitor of the Matriarch Wink

Probably he should be referred to "Primal Gen'jin, Servitor of the Matriarch". Smile
Well, a young woman can still be a matriarch if she's a dominant one.
Adressing her as "Matriarch Ryleen" sounds a bit un-trollish - perhaps "Momma Ryleen" can work as a friendly but still respectful adress.

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Re: Ending the war

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