All under one umbrella.

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All under one umbrella.

Post  Lyranne on Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:10 pm

Right, seeing as it was my idea, I guess I should describe in better detail what Lyranne and Snicka discussed.

The only way I see Guilds putting their egos aside is if they can accept that we all have an equal part to play. This can be best achieved via an umbrella pact. This would be an all-encompassing one for every RP Guild/Tribe, and so forth, and may simply be a restatement of the Horde itself (it is, after all, what we're fighting for).

Under this, we would have the Blood Pact, and the Jade Covenent (and any others that are deemed important - I'll get to that in a bit).

The Blood Pact: Crimson tears soak the land, the bodies of our enemies strewn across the battle-marked earth. I see this as being an ideal splinter group for those actively interested in world PvP assualts. The Guilds where this is a priority have free reign to do so, and any other guild can supply 'reserves' (done as players volunteering to take part). The focus being on organised PvP in general

The Jade Covenent: The emerald lands that we wish to preserve. I see this as more defensive pact, and like with the PvP reserves we'd have the same to help defend (Yes, you can volunteer to do both). This one seems ideal for those of us less inclined to take the fight to the enemy, but willing to aid our allies when such a situation arises. This would therefore focus on encouraging RP guilds to actually help defend a City.

The Onyx Circle: Of those enemies facing us, none are more dangerous than the likes of Illidan, Kael'thas, and any number of vile miscreants. Of course, this would be a part for those of us who prefer PvE. Again, there'd be reserves, and the focus would be on organising instances and raiding in general (as many RP guilds simply don't have the number of active people, this seems logical).

All three would be independant of one another, and we'd have a meeting at least once a month to report on our progress. We would use this to discuss further plans, and request aid, if needed. What this basically means is that if we're struggling with attack or defence, then we can make it known that cities are taking huge casualties. I suggest we set up three channels named for each Pact.

We'd use the Onyx channel to look for groups (whether a low level quest, or filling out a 25-man raid, this would be the channe for it - this is simply because so many of us dislike the LFG channel as it currently is, and so those in the Onyx channel will be doing so when they're able to help others).

The Jade channel would be for local/global defence (though people could join WorldDefense - or whatever it's called). Again, this would require people not actively seeking out anything, per se, but be filled with those willing to aid.

The Blood channel, would be for those either on an assaut, or otherwise planning one. Again, it'd be used by those willing to help as much as those actively seeking out such.

I'm aware it's not ideal, and the channel suggestion is something I doubt will be put into effect (mostly because many of us have a lot of channels already). However; I do see this as being more workable than the current bitching and general cyclical process of coming up with a plan, and then everyone else not being happy. I see this as being the best balance (it also means that only those within a respective Guild would actually have any contact with those others dislike/trust).

Any additional suggestions (specifically those that trim/replace, not add - seeing as there's a lot there already) would be most appreciated.

The main point would be to simply reiterate that which should be everyone's motto. Before any self-serving aim or goal, there's one simple thing to remember: Everything is For the Horde! Everything should be about keeping us strong, and able to withstand anything thrown against us. All this in-fighting is counter-productive - doubly so if it manages to create such rifts that we refuse to work together (and yes, I know there are many IC reasons, but if you're part of the Horde, there are some things you simply have to put up with - despite how it would otherwise make you feel).
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Re: All under one umbrella.

Post  Lyranne on Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:22 pm

If anyone feels this is a good idea as it stands, feel free to copy-paste elsewhere (I'm not brave enough to just assume such and plaster it everywhere - especially as I know it needs truncating and a general ironing out).


Last edited by Lyranne on Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: All under one umbrella.

Post  Snicka on Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:05 pm

What Snicka has understood from this, and adapted to his own thoughts, is the idea of having a council that regularly meets, instead of a pact that binds the members' life to the other members. He avoids using the word "umbrella" - he has no idea what an umbrella is, but he likes the idea of a council that operates the Horde, and a place where global problems - PvP, PvE and RP plots - can be reported and discussed.

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Re: All under one umbrella.

Post  Ryleen on Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:33 pm

I think it sounds like a great idea. Also an idea that will take a lot of work, a lot of ic discussions and a lot of energy to make real. But still, it is good and I like it. Smile
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Re: All under one umbrella.

Post  Vypra on Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:25 pm

Well the main reason, imo, the blood pact never really worked was that it wasn't actually lead by anybody. we had meetings where the leaders of the involved guilds discussed the weighty matters and the rest of the people present just sat around twiddling their thumbs or making unhelpful comments.

Something like this -is- a lot of work. However, nobody ever seems to want to be the one organising it all. Now, the problem i still see is that we have IC disagreement about who will defend where and why.

HoZ, Clearwater tribe, Warsong blades (with the exception of Dardaleik) and the Bleeding Axe clan all have a problem with helping the House of Sylvanas defend UC because either they think the house doesn't deserve their help or they don't trust that the HoS will reciprocate (and even if they do, it will only be as a cover to spy on the other guilds)...

AO and HoS both want a mutual defense stratagies for all horde cities (correct me if i'm wrong) and Vypra will happily include the EAC in that because they feel that, if we don't all work together, the horde will suffer at the hands of a more unified alliance.

Unfortuantely, as i see it, Arch is going to have to do some serious pr work if he wants to get the guilds that don't lke HoS to accept this IC'ly because atm, they'd -almost- be happier kicking the house out of UC and occupying it themselves!
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A Horde Council?

Post  Zanick on Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:53 am

If, at its core, this idea is a council that meets once a month to discuss the major issues, then I will whole-heartedly support it.

But I fear that if we want to agree anything more detailed with the other guilds, then we will have to endure SOOOO many long meetings with various people arguing their positions and we will quite possibly never arrive at a worthwhile agreement.

Let's keep it simple and spend our time making real RP events actually happen.
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Re: All under one umbrella.

Post  Ryleen on Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:36 am

the blood pact never really worked was that it wasn't actually lead by anybody.

There, I think we have a good point. Allied as equals or not, someone needs to be put in a leader-like position. Or we will just end up arguing endlessly, as Zanick said. One person, or a small group of persons who are not the guild leaders would be needed. The trouble would be finding someone who would neutral among the guilds, and someone who all the guilds would be able to trust with that responsibility.
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Re: All under one umbrella.

Post  Lyranne on Mon Oct 06, 2008 5:25 pm

Well, in my opinion, if Guilds refuse to help UC because of one other Guild - IC or no - then they really need to rethink their Tribe/Guilds role within the Horde itself. Every Guild should aid the defence of all Cities, simply because, IC, if those Cities fell, their own could very well be next.

That we may end up having to resort to sledge-hammer tactics to drive this home is tedious, but there seems very little choice.

The meetings would be with neutrals - not leaders. The leaders would be informed, and it would only be to discuss situations. These meetings would not be for debating. Debates belong in 'live' talking, where it's much easier to allow people to voice their own opinion. Within the confines of an RP experience, it simply serves no purpose other than to needlessly politicise everything.

So long as people are aware of these few points, I really don't see why it won't/can't work.

Yes, it needs a leader - or leaders - that can keep a level head and prioritise the Horde over any more selfish aim (As elitist as that may sound, many Guilds really only look out for either their own race, or else their own tribe/Guild).

I know of a few people that would be able to do this, but some would simply be put off by the word 'meeting'. From what I heard, yesterdays was yet another wasted few hours, and that further suggests that if we actually want cross-Guild RP, then we need to stop with constant meetings. Once a month is doable. We arrange the time at the current one, and make damn sure people can get to it (I was given so little notice for last nights, and the one before - I haven't got a House alt).

I don't think these meetings need to deteriorate into needless counter-productive arguments. Every one of these meetings I've attended, I've left frustrated simply because they're so bloody cyclical. We have to remember that democracy doesn't really exist in WoW. All the leaders are either self-appointed, or have inherited their titles. The meeting can be seen in the same way, if it's easier. Only one person from each Guild is permitted to speak, but they can have their advisers if they really feel they must.
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Re: All under one umbrella.

Post  Vypra on Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:43 pm

um, i actually thought last night's meeting was relatively productive...
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Re: All under one umbrella.

Post  Snicka on Mon Oct 06, 2008 8:02 pm

I actually like the idea of the constant (like, weekly) meetings. Only the function of these meetings should change.
Instead of being a place of endless debate, it should function as an IC forum, where the guilds can inform the other guilds about what happened during the last week, and what are they planning to do. For example, it can be a place to announce RP events, raids etc. Also, it can be a place for future suggestions. You may say that OOC forums already exist, like WeAreLegion, but it's not the same. It can be a place where characters can actually get information; it would really improve cross-guild RP.
Strange as it may sound, I actually enjoy political RP. Trying to convince others about your ideas, while listening to theirs, that is fun, and a council is a good place for RP.
The question if a meeting is productive or not depends on what do you expect from a meeting. Last night, we mostly discussed how is it possible to inform other guilds about assaults on other cities and move troops from one city to another. Was it useful, or the issue of some pointless detail, it depends on your opinion. We agreed on no other terms of the pact, however, which I would have liked to hear more about.

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Re: All under one umbrella.

Post  Lyranne on Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:14 pm

Firstly, the only information I got about the meeting was that it went on for far too laong, and at the time, was simply told it was going nowhere. Thus, if my assumption that it led to nothing is in error, I apologise.

Secondly, I was not there, and didn't comment on it specifically (I was referring to every one that I've been to - whether I've said anything or not). But I still apologise if it sounds like I'm complaining about them in a manner where-by they all appeared to be bracketed together. Part of this is due to being an Emissary yet failing to be there for half of them, and so feeling somewhat frustrated.

I too am okay with politics, Snicka, but many aren't, and I'm certain there are more than a few who only go to these meetings because they feel they have to (politics, even in a game, should only be dealt with by people with at least a modicum of understanding about how such works, rather than by a bunch of people, half-alseep, who can never make any progress - this isn't the UN).
A weekly meeting is fine if everyone agrees, and my suggestion for a monthly one was simply because many don't have the time to put aside a few hours every week (and as said, I was not really given much advance warning for either meetings, though now I know they're weekly, I can at least try and be there - though Sunday night's hardly ideal).
The other thing with RPing politics is that many really don't understand the meaning of the word 'compromise'. Simply put, we have to find a balance for what each side wants, rather than driving home what we want. As I said in an earlier post, every meeting I've been to has deteriorated into needlessly self-obsessed arguments, where nothing has really progressed.

The thing is, though... That meeting led to two or so hours talking about the one aspect of the game many actually care little for - PvP. Sure, just as many love it, or at least enjoy it enough, but if I'd have been there, I'd have simply gotten frustrated (in my mind, IC, many have far more to worry about from the likes of the big, bad enemies like Illidan, et cetera, rather than a small group of alliance attacking a City - that said city should have enough stationed guards to thwart such an attempt is neither here nor there).
Yes, I'm aware that out of the many level 70's in the Heritage, I pretty much stand alone in preferring PvE over PvP, so I can equally understand that PvP was the focus of the meeting, so I won't fret over driving home just how dire PvE progression is (supposedly, Lyranne can heal BT/MH, but with so few weeks left, I'm not going to see them - curse Blizzard and making so much content almost impossible to see on a small server).

I'm aware, as always, that certain statements contradict, though I also know that it's simply because I'm trying to cover various subjects without being able to list exceptions or go into more detail with regards to what I mean. So again, I apologise if Ive caused offense or else come across as an incoherent, rambling loon.
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